SPEAKER_01 0:01

What it do, what it do. Welcome back to Middle of the Fence. It's your boy Andre Spruell, and this is part two of our documentary special. Can we call an entire country racist? If you haven't listened to part one yet, I highly recommend starting there first. We explore the psychology behind why we so often judge entire groups based on the actions of a few and why I believe we're asking the wrong question. Today we're taking the conversation one step further. We're diving into Argentina's history, the history of Afro-Argentines, European immigration, and comparing Argentina's past with the histories of other nations around the world. This episode isn't about defending Argentina, and it isn't about condemning Argentina either. It's about understanding history honestly, applying the same standard consistently, and asking whether a nation's past should define every person living there today. So with that, let's get into it. So let's investigate. One of the biggest misconceptions about Argentina is that black people were never really part of its story. And that's simply not true. During the colonial period, Argentina had a significant population of enslaved Africans and Afro-Argentines. They weren't outsiders, they weren't visitors, they helped build the country. They even served in the military. They also influenced things like music, language, religion, food, culture. They were Argentina. Yet today, many people grow up believing black Argentina never existed. So what happened? The answer is more complicated than one sentence. Historians generally agree that several factors contributed to the decline and invisibility of Afro-Argentines. Factors such as wars, disease, poverty, large-scale European immigration, intermarriage, changes in census classifications, and perhaps the most important, the national story Argentina chose to tell about itself. Rather than representing itself as a diverse nation, Argentina increasingly embraced the idea that it was a European nation in South America. And over time, black Argentina became less visible as a result. Not because its history disappeared, but because much of it was left out of the story. That's an important distinction, okay? Because being forgotten isn't the same thing as never existing. Between the mid-1800s and the early 1900s, millions of Europeans immigrated to Argentina. Italians, Spaniards, Germans, French, Eastern Europeans, many were uh escaping poverty, looking for opportunity and hoping to build better lives. And they absolutely helped shape modern Argentina. But at the same time, that massive wave of immigration reinforced the image of Argentina as a white European nation, quote unquote. An image that often overlooked the indigenous communities, the Afro-Argentine communities, and others who had already been part of the country's history. And this is where I want to be careful, not trying to be canceled or anything, because this isn't about blaming today's Argentinians for decisions made generations ago. It's about recognizing that nations, just like people, inherit stories. Some stories are celebrated, others are forgotten. And sometimes forgetting can be just as powerful as remembering. So my Argentinian heritage comes from my mom's side. She was born in Argentina and came to the U.S. when she was four years old. And the main person that was at the core of moving the family to the US was my grandfather, my mom's dad. And like I mentioned, a lot of Argentinians came from a European country. But my grandpa's side of the family actually came from a Middle Eastern country. They came from Syria. And so they have more of a tan or brown skin. And when you're in Argentina and have more of a tan or brown skin, you're considered indigenous or black. So it's the equivalent of being black or darker skin in most other places throughout the world. So a lot of those, so a lot of Argentinians that have that tan or brown skin, you know, were the subject of racism. And I actually saw it firsthand because my grandmother, uh, who is married to my grandfather, she had family members that were racist towards him. And my grandma was born in Italy and moved to Argentina when she was nine. So, you know, a lot of her family members did not approve of her dating my grandfather. And I remember even when I was a young kid and we would go to family gatherings on uh my grandma's side of the family of things, you know, I picked up on some of the, you know, subtle hints of racism that were said or mentioned and things like that. And I know one of the things that was mentioned was uh I forget if it was when I was born or when one of my siblings was born, but when one of us was born, one of the one of the aunts on my grandma's side, and I'm not making this up, said, Thank God the baby came out white. Like, I can't make this stuff up. You know, so again, this is just a real example that again that labeling a country as one thing is not right, but I'm also shedding a light and showing that it doesn't excuse the whole nation as a result. Like I love being Argentine, I'm very, very proud of it. That was in instilled in me by my grandfather, my mom, and going to be instilled in future generations to come. But I also wanted to shed a light and you know, just give an objective take when it comes to this topic at hand. Now, here's where I think consistency matters. Because if we're going to define countries by their history, then we need to use that same standard to everyone, not just Argentina, but we look at a country like the United States that was built in part on slavery. Millions of Africans were enslaved, families were separated, people were treated as property, and after slavery ended, we still had things like segregation and discriminatory laws that continued for generations. And that history is real. And if you're in this country, you know that. Its effects are still discussed today. But here's my question: Does that history mean every American alive today is racist? I don't think most people would say yes. Let's look at a country like Brazil that imported more enslaved Africans than any other country in the Americas. It was also the last country in the Western Hemisphere to abolish slavery. Brazil often celebrated itself as a racial democracy, yet significant racial inequality has continued long after slavery ended. Again, history matters, but history and every individual citizen are not the same thing. France presents another example. The country often celebrates ideals like liberty, equality, and fraternity. Yet its colonial history, particularly in Africa, continues to influence conversations about race, immigration, and national identity today. France's ideals and France's history both deserve to be acknowledged. We can look at Spain and Portugal, which helped lead European colonial expansion, including participation in the Atlantic slave trade. Their histories shaped continents, their cultures also evolved. And today, both countries continue working through questions involving things like immigration, multiculturalism, and discrimination. So once again, history exists, progress exists, problems still exist. Those truths can all coexist. Now notice something. So if we're going to use history, let's use it fairly. If we're going to judge, let's judge consistently. So, like I mentioned, if you have the means to travel or interact with people from said culture that's being questioned, that is the real determining factor. And luckily, I've been to Argentina twice. I went in 2023, going into 2024, and then I also went back in 2012 when I was a teenager with my grandfather. The two times that I was out there, I felt comfortable. I didn't sense a racist vibe or anything like that. And when I say that, it doesn't mean that I'm diminishing anyone else who is black or of a, you know, quote unquote dark skin tone that has been out there and hasn't experienced the same thing because I understand that, you know, the shade of your skin tone can, you know, have different uh implications across the world. And I also know that the fact that I am Argentinian, it also makes it more helpful because I already have family out there, so I'm able to assimilate to the culture off-rip versus being a total newbie to it and having to learn about it. But I just I personally did not have that experience or did not get that vibe at all. And I was a biracial kid that went to private school in one of the wealthiest counties in the country. So I've experienced racism and know what that looks like and have seen racism shown towards my family members, my Argentinian side and my black side. So that's just my experience with it, and I just want to shed a light on that. So, you know, anyone that has ever come at me for supporting Argentina and how can I be black as well and support a racist country, I'm very proud of both my of both of my ethnicities, and I honestly have not had that experience. And if I'm proven wrong in any in any kind of way, then I would have to cross that bridge. So where does all of this leave us? We've looked at history, we've looked at psychology, we've looked at our tendency to reduce millions of people to one headline, but we still haven't answered the biggest question. Can an entire country be racist? Or are we asking a question that's far too simple for something this complicated? That's where I want to finish because I don't think this conversation is ultimately about Argentina. I think it's about every single one of us and how we choose to see people. Let's bring it home. So this episode was something very, very different from all the previous episodes that I've done for Middle of the Fence. And it and I'm not doing this just because it's we're we did have the first year anniversary celebration on uh on uh July 9th. So, you know, it's not just because year two is starting and I want to purposely start off with a bang with this. No, it's just something that because both of my cultures were just I feel like at odds. And this was all these thoughts and sentiments that I shared in this special is something that I've been holding in, to be frank with you guys, you know, and it's something that really means a lot to me, you know. Like I'm very proud to be Argentinian, I'm very proud to be African American as well. And, you know, again, if you want to whatever you say or think about like the soccer or or football side of things, okay, you know, shouldn't Messi have gotten a red card for that tackle against Algeria in the group stage games, probably he probably should have gotten carded. I can agree with you on that. But again, aside from the football stuff, the bigger issue here is that you're, you know, stereotyping cultures and groups of people is simply just not right. If you're tuning into this episode, the biggest takeaway that I want you to have is that again, you're entitled to think what you want, you know, but it's not right to generalize a group of people and be quick to forget the history of a lot of the countries, you know, and a lot of the and one of the main things is that again, Argentina doesn't have an African-American player. In our history, we have had African American players. I'm not saying we've we've had a boatload, you know, previously or anything like that, but we we have. And I think just limiting it to a 26-man roster as a representation of what the country's diversity should look like, and then limiting one belief to millions of groups of people is just not okay. And with this, I didn't want it to be like, you know, I'm Argentinian, so I'm gonna do everything to prove that other countries are just as racist and all that. That wasn't my vibe at all, or to be on the side of, hey, let me dig the hole of the bad PR that Argentina is getting even deeper, you know, because I want to stand on the side that most other people are. No, and that ties into what middle of the fence is all about, it's about embracing the cultures and differences, it's about unity, it's about taking the time to understand what we have gone through as individuals, groups of people, and all that, because regardless of what walk of life you came from, regardless of the financial background that you came from, regardless of what country you grew up in, what town you grew up in, what school you went to, what you studied in college, if you went to college, what you do for work, where your hopes and dreams and aspirations are, like all that stuff doesn't really matter. What really matters is showing up in the world and being a good person and not being so quick to judge others. Because if you actually take the time to interact with people that may differ from you because of the way that they look, the way that they dress, the way that they talk, or anything along those lines, you can come to the realization that, oh wow, you know, I didn't realize that this person went through the same exact thing that I did or had much different circumstances, but it ultimately led to us having similar viewpoints and outlooks on life because again, every single person views and navigates through this world in a very different way. But one thing that I want to say is that when we embrace cultures and interact with one another, which we've seen through the World Cup fans, and I hope that you've seen it through your own personal life as well. We can come to the ultimate realization that no matter what side of the fence you grew up on, we truly are all more alike than we think.

SPEAKER_00 18:29

My name is Andre Spruell. If you didn't, if you're not tapped into this episode, don't even bother watching the next ones. Peace.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

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